Việt Giải Trí/ CBSNews- NYTimes
Sau đó CBS news phỏng vấn Bob Kerrey lại một lần nữa về những
mâu thuẫn giữa câu trả lời của ông và Klann. Ông ta vẫn một mực phủ nhận
trách nhiện và giải thích quanh co, mặc dù không phủ nhận trực tiếp
Klann, cho rằng “đó là ký ức của tôi là như thế”. Klann sau đó có nói
Bob Kerrey đã liên lạc với ông để thuyết phục ông thay đổi nội dung câu
chuyện.
Published on Jun 10, 2016
Trên bài viết về tranh cãi xung quanh Bob Kerrey, VNExpress chỉ có mấy dòng ngắn gọn sau:
“Theo một cuộc điều tra của kênh truyền hình CBS News và báo
New York Times hồi năm 2001, đội đặc nhiệm dưới quyền ông Kerrey ngày
25/2/1969 gây ra cuộc thảm sát tại Khâu Băng, ấp Thạnh Hòa, xã Thạnh
Phong, huyện Thạnh Phú, tỉnh Bến Tre. ”
Thực tế thì vụ thảm sát đã xảy ra như thế nào và Bob Kerrey đã ân
hận ra sao. Nguyên gốc 3 phần của bài trên CBS News ở đây (xem Phụ
trang).
Những điều Bob Kerrey thừa nhận:
Bob Kerrey nói rằng nhóm của ông đến một căn nhà
tranh (hooch) và phát hiện 5 người đàn ông và giết chết tất cả. Ông ta
nói ông ta không trực tiếp giết. Sau đó nhóm của ông đi ra ngoài và bị
tấn công bằng súng từ các căn nhà còn lại, họ bắn trả (ở khoảng cách hơn
100 yards/mét) và tiến vào những căn nhà đó khi ngừng bắn.
Sau đó mới phát hiện ra tất cả đều là phụ nữ và trẻ em, chừng 12 đến 15 người. Buổi sáng hôm sau, báo cáo của nhóm là “phá hủy 2 căn nhà, giết chết 14 Việt cộng”.
Sự kiện được Bob Kerrey giấu kín hơn 30 năm, ông ta chỉ trả lời phỏng
vấn sau khi nhà báo Gregory Vistica tìm thấy tài liệu mật cho thấy có
thể có phụ nữ và trẻ em bị giết chết trong sự kiện đó.
Theo lời kể của nhân chứng sống sót duy nhất, bà Phạm Thị Lãnh:
5 nạn nhân ở ngôi nhà đầu tiên chỉ là một ông
già, một bà già và ba đứa cháu khoảng từ 8 đến 12 tuổi. Nhóm biệt kích
lôi ông già đang nằm ra ngoài và cắt cổ, sau đó đâm chết 3 đứa bé đang
đang run rẩy sợ hãi bò xuống dưới mương nước, rồi đâm chết bà của
chúng.
Sau đó nhóm biệt kích đến những ngôi nhà còn lại và tìm thấy các
nhạn nhân khác, do quá đông nên họ không thể cắt cổ lần lượt mà dùng
súng. Đầu tiên 2 bà già bị bắt quỳ xuống và bị bắn trước, sau đó số còn
lại bị bắt xếp thành hàng và bắn từ phía sau. Trong số đó cũng có 3 đứa
bé trai chừng 8, 9, 10 tuổi.
Theo lời kể của Gerhard Klann, một biệt kích dưới quyền
Bob Kerrey trong vụ thảm sát đó: có 5 nạn nhân ở căn nhà đầu tiên, trong
đó có ba đứa bé không quá 12 tuổi. Chính Bob Kerrey ra lệnh giết và chính Bob Kerrey khống chế ông già để Klann cắt cổ ông.
Tiếp theo họ đến những ngôi nhà còn lại, không có bất cứ màn đấu
súng nào như lời kể của Bob Kerrey. Nhóm biệt kích dồn những người còn
lại và lục soát. Những người ở đây bao gồm phần lớn là trẻ em, còn lại
là phụ nữ già và trẻ. Tất cả đều không có vũ khí và nhóm biệt kích cũng
không tìm thấy bất cứ vũ khí nào. Sau đó chúng xếp hàng và bắt chết tất
cả ở cự ly gần (6-10 feet ~ 2-3 mét), mệnh lệnh dĩ nhiên không từ ai
khác ngoài Bob Kerrey. Âm thanh cuối cùng của các nạn nhân là tiếng khóc
của một đứa bé và cuối cùng cũng bị bắn chết như những người khác.
Sau đó CBS news phỏng vấn Bob Kerrey lại một lần nữa về những mâu
thuẫn giữa câu trả lời của ông và Klann. Ông ta vẫn một mực phủ nhận
trách nhiệm và giải thích quanh co, mặc dù không phủ nhận trực tiếp
Klann, cho rằng “đó là ký ức của tôi là như thế”. Klann sau đó có nói Bob Kerrey đã liên lạc với ông để thuyết phục ông thay đổi nội dung câu chuyện.
5 biệt kích còn lại trước đó đã ra tuyên bố chung có nội dung giống câu
trả lời của Bob Kerrey sau khi Kerrey và họ ngồi lại thảo luận chung.
Sau vụ thảm sát 2 tuần, Bob Kerrey bị thương trong một chiến dịch khác
và mất một chân. Sau khi ra viện, ông ta được nhận huân chương Medal of
Honor từ Tổng Thống Nixon. Riêng chiến dịch Thạnh Phong, ông ta được
nhận huy chương Bronze Star.
Cũng để thấy được cái giá của hòa bình và sự khủng khiếp của
chiến tranh như thế nào. Cho đến tháng 4 năm ngoái, nước Đức vẫn truy
tìm và tìm ra cựu trung sĩ SS Oskar Groning, nhân viên kế toán ở trại
tập trung Auschwitz, để tống giam khi ông ta 94 tuổi.
Còn chúng ta?
Chúng ta, đang trải thảm rước một kẻ từng thảm sát đồng bào mình về làm công việc khai dân trí. Chuyện gì đang diễn ra thế ?
Cảm ơn các bạn đã ghé thăm, tôi xin mời các bạn một ly cafe làm quen...Nếu các bạn ủng hộ thì xin đăng ký tại đây nhé: https://goo.gl/1V4f4K Chúc các bạn sức khỏe và gặp nhiều may mắn trong cuộc sống.
Việt Giải Trí/ CBSNews- NYTimes
Nguồn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5Uu0ROfz-g
Nhận Xét của bạn đọc
Bui Huong2 weeks ago (edited)
Cảm ơn bạn đã chia sẻ những quan điểm cá nhân của mình ! Tôi đã đọc bài viết của bà Ninh từ khi mới ra, nhưng rất tiếc là quan điểm của tôi là không và "sẽ không bao giờ" ủng hộ quan điểm của bà Ninh, cho dù bài viết cũng có nhiều cái không hề sai ! Tôi luôn tin tưởng vào cách hành sử của người Nhật đối với người Mỹ, từ ngay sau cuộc thế chiến thứ 2, họ đã vô cùng tỉnh táo để nhận ra đâu là người "kẻ thù đáng kính", để ngay lập tức bắt tay, hợp tác với họ, và đó là điều vô cùng quan trọng làm lên một nước Nhật hùng vĩ như ngày hôm nay ! Văn hóa, đạo đức của người Nhật vẫn cực kỳ tốt cho dù sau những đầy dẫy sai lầm cha ông họ đã mắc phải ! tôi luôn mong người dân Việt Nam hãy học tập người Nhật, hãy tỉnh táo chọn bạn để hợp tác, trong công cuộc tái thiết và xây dựng đất nước về mọi mặt, để đem lại những điều tốt đẹp cho thế hệ tương lai con em chúng ta ! Quá khử của lịch sử, chúng ta không thể thay đổi được nữa, vậy tương lai chúng ta phải làm gì đây ?Cá nhân tôi hiện tại, tôi còn tin tưởng, kính trọng những kẻ thù "đáng kính" như Bob Kerry còn hơn nhiều kẻ Lãnh đạo của Việt Nam đã và đang lợi dụng chiến tranh, nỗi đau và mất mát của người dân để làm những việc kệch cỡm như xây dựng Tượng Đài hết " rất nhiều trăm nghìn tỷ" làm biểu tượng để ngắm, để nhớ....trong khi biết bao nhiêu người dân (con số vô cùng lớn) ở dưới chân tượng đài còn đang đói, rét, trẻ em ở đó còn thiếu quần áo mặc, và sinh hoạt như một lũ thú hoang, chứ đừng nói đến chuyện học hành tử tế .... ! Ngay cả vụ thảm họa môi trường Biển miền trung sờ sờ ra đó mà suốt mấy tháng nay cũng không đưa ra được nguyên nhân vì sao và phương án giải quyết là thế nào ? theo các nhà chuyên môn của bạn tôi thì chỉ cần 1 tuần là làm ra được hết mọi chuyện rõ ràng ! đã thế lại còn từ chối sự đề nghị hộ trợ và sẵn sàng chìa tay ra giúp đỡ từ phía Bạn, nơi có nền khoa học cực kỳ phát triển là Mỹ ! Trân trọng mời các bạn tham khảo thêm video:(1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSfFXyqtrAo&feature=youtu.be&list=PL231429C17BE39E34(2) Bài viết sau: https://www.facebook.com/hai.anh.7549 ! Chúc các bạn nhiều sức khỏe và thành công trong cuộc sống !
Cảm ơn bạn đã chia sẻ những quan điểm cá nhân của mình ! Tôi đã đọc bài viết của bà Ninh từ khi mới ra, nhưng rất tiếc là quan điểm của tôi là không và "sẽ không bao giờ" ủng hộ quan điểm của bà Ninh, cho dù bài viết cũng có nhiều cái không hề sai ! Tôi luôn tin tưởng vào cách hành sử của người Nhật đối với người Mỹ, từ ngay sau cuộc thế chiến thứ 2, họ đã vô cùng tỉnh táo để nhận ra đâu là người "kẻ thù đáng kính", để ngay lập tức bắt tay, hợp tác với họ, và đó là điều vô cùng quan trọng làm lên một nước Nhật hùng vĩ như ngày hôm nay ! Văn hóa, đạo đức của người Nhật vẫn cực kỳ tốt cho dù sau những đầy dẫy sai lầm cha ông họ đã mắc phải ! tôi luôn mong người dân Việt Nam hãy học tập người Nhật, hãy tỉnh táo chọn bạn để hợp tác, trong công cuộc tái thiết và xây dựng đất nước về mọi mặt, để đem lại những điều tốt đẹp cho thế hệ tương lai con em chúng ta ! Quá khử của lịch sử, chúng ta không thể thay đổi được nữa, vậy tương lai chúng ta phải làm gì đây ?Cá nhân tôi hiện tại, tôi còn tin tưởng, kính trọng những kẻ thù "đáng kính" như Bob Kerry còn hơn nhiều kẻ Lãnh đạo của Việt Nam đã và đang lợi dụng chiến tranh, nỗi đau và mất mát của người dân để làm những việc kệch cỡm như xây dựng Tượng Đài hết " rất nhiều trăm nghìn tỷ" làm biểu tượng để ngắm, để nhớ....trong khi biết bao nhiêu người dân (con số vô cùng lớn) ở dưới chân tượng đài còn đang đói, rét, trẻ em ở đó còn thiếu quần áo mặc, và sinh hoạt như một lũ thú hoang, chứ đừng nói đến chuyện học hành tử tế .... ! Ngay cả vụ thảm họa môi trường Biển miền trung sờ sờ ra đó mà suốt mấy tháng nay cũng không đưa ra được nguyên nhân vì sao và phương án giải quyết là thế nào ? theo các nhà chuyên môn của bạn tôi thì chỉ cần 1 tuần là làm ra được hết mọi chuyện rõ ràng ! đã thế lại còn từ chối sự đề nghị hộ trợ và sẵn sàng chìa tay ra giúp đỡ từ phía Bạn, nơi có nền khoa học cực kỳ phát triển là Mỹ ! Trân trọng mời các bạn tham khảo thêm video:(1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSfFXyqtrAo&feature=youtu.be&list=PL231429C17BE39E34(2) Bài viết sau: https://www.facebook.com/hai.anh.7549 ! Chúc các bạn nhiều sức khỏe và thành công trong cuộc sống !
Việt Giải trí 1 day ago
Chỉ trong một thời gian ngắn ngủi thôi, quả thật có quá nhiều diễn biến và có quá nhiều quan điểm trái chiều nhau bạn ơi. Đau thương và mất mát, cuộc sống và đời thường. Tranh cãi và tranh cãi. Người Mỹ họ có câu: nếu không giải pháp thì đừng than vãn. Bởi họ chú trọng cách giải quyết hơn là ngồi cãi nhau..
Chỉ trong một thời gian ngắn ngủi thôi, quả thật có quá nhiều diễn biến và có quá nhiều quan điểm trái chiều nhau bạn ơi. Đau thương và mất mát, cuộc sống và đời thường. Tranh cãi và tranh cãi. Người Mỹ họ có câu: nếu không giải pháp thì đừng than vãn. Bởi họ chú trọng cách giải quyết hơn là ngồi cãi nhau..
ThinhD Pham 1 hour ago
Dường như ông bạn lợi dụng diễn đàn để đánh tạt sang mục tiêui
chống chính quyền mà thôi. Đem những đề tài đáng tranh cãi khác vào để
đánh tráo vấn đề, tức là tự xóa bỏ câu chuyện đang thảo luận
Nước Nhật không phải là nước bị xâm lăng, mà là một trong 3
nước của phe Trục gây ra Đệ Nhị Thế Chiến Chính nước Nhật đã tấn công
nước Mỹ ở Trân Châu Cảng vào ngay 7 tháng 12, 1941. Vậy trường hợp này
sự so sánh hoàn toàn lệch lạc.
ThinhD Pham 1 hour ago
Tôi không nghĩ là chuyện ông Bob Kerry là chuyện tha thứ, hay là chuyện quá khứ. Người Việt Nam biết thân phận một nước nhỏ đứng trước mọi nguy cơ của các nước lớn, sẵn sàng bỏ qua tất cả để lo cho chuyện tương lai. Và chúng ta đã thể hiện trong việc nồng ấm với Tổng Thống Mỹ Obama. Nhưng chúng ta không đến nỗi phải hy sinh cả cái liêm sỉ của mình. Chuyện Bob Kerrey nếu ông không đòi leo lên hàng vinh dự của đại học Fullbright thì đâu có ai kho chịu. Ông có thể làm chuyện gì khác để tỏ ra hối hận, tại sao phải đòi đứng ỏ vị trí cao nhất để được vinh danh?
Tôi không nghĩ là chuyện ông Bob Kerry là chuyện tha thứ, hay là chuyện quá khứ. Người Việt Nam biết thân phận một nước nhỏ đứng trước mọi nguy cơ của các nước lớn, sẵn sàng bỏ qua tất cả để lo cho chuyện tương lai. Và chúng ta đã thể hiện trong việc nồng ấm với Tổng Thống Mỹ Obama. Nhưng chúng ta không đến nỗi phải hy sinh cả cái liêm sỉ của mình. Chuyện Bob Kerrey nếu ông không đòi leo lên hàng vinh dự của đại học Fullbright thì đâu có ai kho chịu. Ông có thể làm chuyện gì khác để tỏ ra hối hận, tại sao phải đòi đứng ỏ vị trí cao nhất để được vinh danh?
Đó là vấn đề hiện tại và tương lai chứ không phải là vấn đề quá
khứ. Xin đừng đem vấn đề tha thứ hay vượt lên quá khứ để đánh lạc vấn
đề nữa.
Bui Huong 2 weeks ago (edited)
Gia đình tôi cũng có chú tôi là liệt sỹ, tôi cũng hiểu được nỗi đau mất mát trong quá khứ của chiến tranh ! Nhưng hơn bao giờ hết, chúng ta hãy khép lại quá khứ (nhưng sẽ không được quên). Chúng ta cùng hướng tới tương lai tươi đẹp cho con em chúng ta ! Những cựu binh Mỹ, vì những tình huống không hiểu biết, nên đã phạm sai lầm, chiến tranh thì thật là trớ trêu.... ! Nhưng điều quan trọng là Họ đã dũng cảm đứng lên xin lỗi người dân Việt Nam, đã có gắng suốt bao nhiêu năm qua, cho đến tận những năm của tuổi già để giúp đỡ cho tương lai thế hệ trẻ của Việt Nam, sẽ không còn nhiều người như họ nữa, và cũng không biết Họ còn làm đươc bao lâu nữa ? . Vì vậy, chúng ta hãy mở rộng tấm lòng để đón họ ! Tôi rất trân trọng những việc Bob Kerry đã nỗ lực làm cho Việt Nam trong suốt những năm sau chiến tranh và sẵn lòng mở rộng vòng tay ra để yêu mến ông ấy ! Nếu có điều kiện, tôi sẵn sàng cho con tôi vào học ĐH Fulbright dù có mang tên ông ấy, ông Bob Kerrey ! và tôi sẽ giáo dục con tôi rằng, con không bao giờ được quên quá khứ, luôn phải nhớ đến những người đã không may ngã xuống, khi có điều kiện hãy cố gắng hết sức để làm những việc tốt, bù đắp cho sự thiệt thòi của họ ! nhưng bên cạnh đó con phải biết tha thứ, và hãy trân trọng những việc làm quý giá mà Họ đã dày công mang lại những điều tốt đẹp cho tương lai của các thế hệ mai sau của Việt Nam ! Tôi đã từng chứng kiến ông Giáo sư người Nhật của tôi, đã sinh ra và lớn lên ở Hiroshima, đúng vào năm mà thành phố này phải hứng chịu quả bom của Mỹ. Tôi hiểu ông ấy không bao giờ quên quá khứ mà nơi chôn rau cắt rốn ông ấy phải chịu đựng. Nhưng nhìn những việc ông ấy làm và rất kính trọng người Mỹ, luôn khiêm tốn, nỗ lực vun đắp tình hữu nghị với người Mỹ thì tôi đã nhận ra rằng Thầy tôi đã rất khôn ngoan một cách "cao thủ", biết khép lại quá khứ và biết chọn bạn, một kẻ thù nhưng "đáng kính" để chơi, để hợp tác... ! Và tôi tin chắc đó là một yếu tố không hề nhỏ để góp phần làm nên một nước Nhật vĩ đại như hôm nay !
Gia đình tôi cũng có chú tôi là liệt sỹ, tôi cũng hiểu được nỗi đau mất mát trong quá khứ của chiến tranh ! Nhưng hơn bao giờ hết, chúng ta hãy khép lại quá khứ (nhưng sẽ không được quên). Chúng ta cùng hướng tới tương lai tươi đẹp cho con em chúng ta ! Những cựu binh Mỹ, vì những tình huống không hiểu biết, nên đã phạm sai lầm, chiến tranh thì thật là trớ trêu.... ! Nhưng điều quan trọng là Họ đã dũng cảm đứng lên xin lỗi người dân Việt Nam, đã có gắng suốt bao nhiêu năm qua, cho đến tận những năm của tuổi già để giúp đỡ cho tương lai thế hệ trẻ của Việt Nam, sẽ không còn nhiều người như họ nữa, và cũng không biết Họ còn làm đươc bao lâu nữa ? . Vì vậy, chúng ta hãy mở rộng tấm lòng để đón họ ! Tôi rất trân trọng những việc Bob Kerry đã nỗ lực làm cho Việt Nam trong suốt những năm sau chiến tranh và sẵn lòng mở rộng vòng tay ra để yêu mến ông ấy ! Nếu có điều kiện, tôi sẵn sàng cho con tôi vào học ĐH Fulbright dù có mang tên ông ấy, ông Bob Kerrey ! và tôi sẽ giáo dục con tôi rằng, con không bao giờ được quên quá khứ, luôn phải nhớ đến những người đã không may ngã xuống, khi có điều kiện hãy cố gắng hết sức để làm những việc tốt, bù đắp cho sự thiệt thòi của họ ! nhưng bên cạnh đó con phải biết tha thứ, và hãy trân trọng những việc làm quý giá mà Họ đã dày công mang lại những điều tốt đẹp cho tương lai của các thế hệ mai sau của Việt Nam ! Tôi đã từng chứng kiến ông Giáo sư người Nhật của tôi, đã sinh ra và lớn lên ở Hiroshima, đúng vào năm mà thành phố này phải hứng chịu quả bom của Mỹ. Tôi hiểu ông ấy không bao giờ quên quá khứ mà nơi chôn rau cắt rốn ông ấy phải chịu đựng. Nhưng nhìn những việc ông ấy làm và rất kính trọng người Mỹ, luôn khiêm tốn, nỗ lực vun đắp tình hữu nghị với người Mỹ thì tôi đã nhận ra rằng Thầy tôi đã rất khôn ngoan một cách "cao thủ", biết khép lại quá khứ và biết chọn bạn, một kẻ thù nhưng "đáng kính" để chơi, để hợp tác... ! Và tôi tin chắc đó là một yếu tố không hề nhỏ để góp phần làm nên một nước Nhật vĩ đại như hôm nay !
Việt Giải trí 2 weeks ago
Tất cả những người Việt Nam chân chính đều quan niệm như vậy, và đã, đang cố gắng làm như vậy. Tuy nhiên vẫn có những trường hợp đặc biệt, trong một không thời gian đặc biệt mà chúng ta cần phải tỉnh táo nhìn nhận. Khi nó có thể ảnh hưởng tới toàn bộ tâm lý của thế hệ trẻ sau này. Mỗi người đều có những quan điểm sống khác nhau, do hoàn cảnh sống, do không thời gian tâm lý, do trình độ, nên có những cách suy nghĩ khác nhau. Mình đồng quan điểm với bà Tôn Nữ Thị Ninh, bạn có thể tham khảo thêm:Thư ngỏ gửi người VN & các bạn Mỹ của bà Tôn Nữ Thị Ninh:http://vietnamnet.vn/vn/thoi-su/chinh-tri/308989/thu-ngo-gui-nguoi-vn-cac-ban-my-cua-ba-ton-nu-thi-ninh.html Chúc bạn và gia đình sức khỏe, hạnh phúc và luôn gặp may mắn trong cuộc sống. Thân.
Tất cả những người Việt Nam chân chính đều quan niệm như vậy, và đã, đang cố gắng làm như vậy. Tuy nhiên vẫn có những trường hợp đặc biệt, trong một không thời gian đặc biệt mà chúng ta cần phải tỉnh táo nhìn nhận. Khi nó có thể ảnh hưởng tới toàn bộ tâm lý của thế hệ trẻ sau này. Mỗi người đều có những quan điểm sống khác nhau, do hoàn cảnh sống, do không thời gian tâm lý, do trình độ, nên có những cách suy nghĩ khác nhau. Mình đồng quan điểm với bà Tôn Nữ Thị Ninh, bạn có thể tham khảo thêm:Thư ngỏ gửi người VN & các bạn Mỹ của bà Tôn Nữ Thị Ninh:http://vietnamnet.vn/vn/thoi-su/chinh-tri/308989/thu-ngo-gui-nguoi-vn-cac-ban-my-cua-ba-ton-nu-thi-ninh.html Chúc bạn và gia đình sức khỏe, hạnh phúc và luôn gặp may mắn trong cuộc sống. Thân.
ThinhD Pham 48 minutes ago
Lúc đầu tôi rất hồ hởi về đại học Fullbright được mở, và không để ý tới việc ai được bổ nhiệm làm chức vụ gì. Nhưng khi đọc những lý luận của bà Tôn Nữ Thi Ninh, tôi hoàn toàn được thuyết phục về quan điểm. Nhiều người cứ loanh quanh đánh lạc vấn đề sang chuyện tha thứ để miệt thị bà và những người ủng hộ quan điểm bà,. Hôm nay xem thêm các phỏng ván của những người ở làng Thạnh Phong còn sống sót qua vụ thảm sát năm 1969 do Bob Kerrey lãnh đạo, thấy tội nghiệp dân quê của ta không ai bảo bọc gì trong chiến tranh.
Lúc đầu tôi rất hồ hởi về đại học Fullbright được mở, và không để ý tới việc ai được bổ nhiệm làm chức vụ gì. Nhưng khi đọc những lý luận của bà Tôn Nữ Thi Ninh, tôi hoàn toàn được thuyết phục về quan điểm. Nhiều người cứ loanh quanh đánh lạc vấn đề sang chuyện tha thứ để miệt thị bà và những người ủng hộ quan điểm bà,. Hôm nay xem thêm các phỏng ván của những người ở làng Thạnh Phong còn sống sót qua vụ thảm sát năm 1969 do Bob Kerrey lãnh đạo, thấy tội nghiệp dân quê của ta không ai bảo bọc gì trong chiến tranh.
Bây giờ những người đi phỏng vấn cứ lái sang câu hỏi về tha thứ. Họ (người dân)nói, "không tha thứ cũng chẳng làm được gì."
Quả thật, họ có thể làm gì được ai đâu? Họ cũng chẳng nói lên cái gì
được ngoài sự thật. Kẻ nào đem đạo đức vị tha ra dạy đời để đánh tráo vấn đề danh dự của dân tộc nên hồi tỉnh lại mới phải.
Phụ trang 1:
Date: 2001 May 01
Memories Of A Massacre: Part I
Varying Accounts Of A Night In 1969
There are few, if any, stories 60 Minutes II has
done that have created as much controversy and debate as our "Memories
of a Massacre." It first aired in the spring of last year.
It is the story of a military operation in the Vietnam War under the command of Bob Kerrey, a former Senator, governor and Presidential candidate. It was a secret until Senator Kerrey agreed to talk to us and the New York Times Magazine about the 1969 operation, when his Navy SEAL unit killed more than 20 unarmed civilians - one old man, the rest women and children.
Since our story first aired, there have been calls for a war crimes investigation. And there was criticism we were smearing an American hero. Senator Kerrey, who was awarded the Medal of Honor after a later battle in Vietnam, originally told us it was all a horrible accident of war.
But a very experienced Navy SEAL who was at Kerrey's side that night, Gerhard Klann, a man who later helped save Kerrey's life, told us it was no accident - that in the chaos women and children were rounded up and shot at point-blank range for what was considered to be necessary reasons.
To this day, Gerhard Klann stands by his story. As for Senator Kerrey, in his recently published autobiography, he now avoids many of the questions about what happened that night. He does acknowledge that his own version has changed and may in fact no longer be accurate.
Two men with contradicting memories - both haunted by the events of a single night. We begin again with Bob Kerrey's memories.
Rather
You gave the order to fire?
Kerrey
Oh, absolutely.
Rather
You let 'em have it?
Kerrey
Well a bit more than let them have it, I mean we fired in lavs, we fired in M-79's, M-60's, we stood back and we just emptied everything we could into this place and we were taking fire. And we came into the village and it wasn't a big village, it was, you know, four or five hooches. There was a cluster of women and children, they were all dead. So that's the outcome.
Rather
Was this the worst thing that you ever did in your life?
Kerrey
Oh, nothing, there is no second place. Yes, yeah. I mean, this is where, I mean, I lost something more important than losing, if I'd lost both arms and both legs and my sight and my hearing it wouldn't have been as much as I lost that night.
Narration
It was early in 1969 when Lieutenant Kerrey arrived in Vietnam. The Communists were intensifying their attacks against U-S forces and their South Vietnamese allies. Thirty thousand Americans had already died in the war. Nearly ten thousand more would be killed by the end of the year . Kerrey was a highly skilled Navy SEAL leader, trained in demolition, infiltration and the arts of assassination and kidnapping behind enemy lines. Trained to go to places like the Mekong Delta, a place infested with the Viet Cong. Kerrey was eager to serve, as he put it, "with a knife in my teeth."
Kerrey
You're trained to kill somebody with a knife, you're trained to kill somebody with small arms, you're trained to kill somebody in tight.
Rather
You were team leader in Delta Platoon.
Kerrey
Mm-hm.
Rather
Fair or unfair to say they were young and green?
Kerrey
Fair to say that we are youg and green, right. Yeah.
Rather
Including yourself?
Kerrey
Oh, I would say most especially myself, yeah.
Narration
Kerrey's first big mission - on the night of February 25th, 1969 - just a few weeks after his green platoon arrived in Vietnam – was to kidnap a local political chief in his hooch, or thatch-roofed house, in a tiny Mekong Delta hamlet called Thanh Phong.
Rather
Take your time, take me to the start, tell me what happened.
Kerrey
We went in at night. And we found men in a hooch and the people who were running out in front of me said we've got people, we've found men and we're gonna take care of them. Which I understood and I would authorize without saying so meant they were going to kill them.
Narration
Kerrey says his squad used their knives to kill all five men.
Rather
Did you personally kill any of them?
Kerrey
No, I did not, but in my mind, I personally killed all of them, I take full responsibility for them, so, and then I'm in charge of this platoon, I'm in charge of the squad, actually.
Rather
Why not take them prisoner?
Kerrey
Because of where we're operating, our belief is that they could break free and we could be at risk.
Rather
They could compromise the mission?
Kerrey
Compromise the mission, we end up being dead.
Narration
Then, shortly after Kerrey says five men were killed, the mission spiraled out of control.
Kerrey
We moved out to the right and we started moving probably down, you know, criss-crossing a little bit along canals on the rice paddy on the dikes of these rice paddies. And we took fire and we returned the fire from an area that we were going.
Rather
Small arms fire?
Kerrey
Small arms fire. It was a fair distance away. I mean we just put down a field of fire and moved in on those hooches and stayed firing all the way through.
Narration
And when the firing stopped, Kerrey says he was stunned when he walked up to his victims.
Rather
How many were women and children?
Kerrey
All.
Rather
About how many were dead?
Kerrey
15, 12
Rather
At that moment, what did you think to yourself at that time?
Kerrey
I just killed my own family. I just did something really bad. I mean, I thought, this shouldn't have happened.
Narration
Kerrey says he and his men did not find any weapons. The unit was evacuated quickly by boat, and apparently the men did not talk much that night… or in the 30 years since… about what had happened. But one member of the unit did file a battle report the next morning – a report we managed to unearth - and we read it to Kerrey.
Rather
It says, "two hooches destroyed, 14 VC KIA." Translation: 14 Viet Cong killed in action. No mention of women and children.
Kerrey
No, we would not have sepaated out and mentioned them as women and children.
Rather
Why not?
Kerrey
It just didn't. We, sex, age, nothing would have been reported on in that fashion. We considered everybody in that area to be VC and that's how we would report it.
Rather
I think this is gonna surprise a lot of people. But that's the way it was.
Kerrey
That's the way it was.
Narration
For more than thirty years, Kerrey talked about Thanh Phong only with family members and his minister. He agreed to talk to us and the New York Times Magazine only after Gregory Vistica, an author and journalist, discovered previously classified military documents which suggested that women and children had been killed at Thanh Phong.
Kerrey
For a long time, I felt guilty. Guilty is to me a more trivial and also more destructive feeling. Remorse is what I feel today. And the difference is very, very important. I mean, let the other people judge whether or not what I did was militarily allowable or morally ethical or inside the rules of war. Let them figure that out. I mean, I can make a case that it was. But it's still a dead woman, it's still a dead child. It's still a dead man. It's still a dead person. It's still death.
Narration
After we interviewed Bob Kerrey, we wanted to find out more about what happened in Thanh Phong, so we sent a team to Vietnam. They drove six hours south of Saigon, now officially called Ho Chi Minh City… crossed the mighty Mekong River by ferry boat, and then took two more ferries to Than Phu province. Government officials told us this may be the poorest district in Vietnam, and Thanh Phong may be the poorest village,.lying at the end of a 15-kilometer-long dirt road. The villagers eke out a subsistence living, fishing, crabbing and growing water coconuts, and some say they have a lasting memory of the night in 1969 when the Americans attacked their hamlet. They remember it in horrifying detail. This man, the grandson of two of the people who died that night, showed us where the attack began.
(Vietnamese being spoken)
Rather Translation
Where the sugar cane is growing, he said. That's where they died.
Narration
We were told members of the American unit came down this river to get to the village, and are believed to have gone ashore here. There was more jungle back then, and the hooches they attacked have disappeared. But 62-year-old Pham Tri Lanh is still here. And she says she was watching as the Americans attacked the first hooch.
Mrs. Lanh
I was hiding behind the banana tree and I saw them cut the man's neck, first here and then there. His head was still just barely attacked at the back.
Narration
The Americans killed everyone in the first hooch, Mrs. Lanh said. And contrary to what Bob Kerrey told us, Mrs. Lanh says, the five victims were not all men.
Mrs. Lanh
No, that is not true. Ther was an old woman, an old man , two girls and a boy and they were all young. They were the grandchildren.
Narration
Anyone who says there were five men there is lying, Mrs. Lanh told 60 Minutes II producer Tom Anderson and a translator. More than 30 years later, Mrs. Lanh said she is certain of what she saw.
Mrs. Lanh
The three children were scared and they crawled into a ditch. The old man and the old woman were lying down inside a house like the houses here. There was a water pump. He was sleeping inside the house and they went in and grabbed him and dragged him out to the water pump and that is where they cut his throat. Then they stabbed the three children.
Q: Did you see the Americans kill the children?
A: (nods head yes) After they cut the throat of the old man, they went out and stabbed the three children.
Narration
Mrs. Lanh, the only person we found who claims to be an eyewitness to the attack, said the soldiers also stabbed the woman in the hooch to death. Nearby, villagers showed us the grave of the old man, named Bui Van Vat. Next to him is the grave of the woman -- his wife, Luu Thi Canh. Next to them are their three grandchildren, buried without headstones under mounds of cement -- a boy who was eight or nine, and two girls, one of them about ten, the other a year or two older. After killing the children and their grandparents, Mrs. Lanh told us, the Americans walked further into the hamlet and discovered several more hooches, and more villagers.
Mrs. Lanh
It was very crowded so it wasn't possible for them to cut everybody's throats one by one. (edit) Two women came out and kneeled down. (edit) They shot these two old women and they fell forward and they rolled over. And then they ordered everybody out from the bunker and they lined them up and they shot all of them from behind.
Q and A with Mrs. Lanh
Q: Were there any men in the second bunker?
A: Just three little boys
Q: How big were the boys?
A: Little, like that. They were about eight, nine, ten years old.
Narration
Mrs. Lanh says five or six girls were also gunned down, and five women, one of them pregnant. She says She managed to escape by hiding in an underground bunker. The story Mrs. Lanh lived to tell is very different from Bob Kerrey's. Keep in mind, however, that Mrs. Lanh was a Communist revolutionary during the war. But her story is remarkably similar to what another eyewitness later told us. His name is Gerhard Klann. He was also in Thanh Phong that night, as the most experienced member of Lieutenant Kerrey's unit. We asked Klann about the first hooch, the hooch Kerrey says was filled with men.
Rather
Do you remember how many there were?
Klann
Five or six that I recall. Five I think.
Rather
All males or a mixture of males and females?
Klann
No it was a mixture.
Rather
When you say a mixturewere there children?
Klann
Yeah, three.
Rather
Any of them small children?
Klann
I'd say I don't think any of them coulda been older than twelve years old.
Narration
That is precisely what Mrs. Lanh told us in Vietnam. Journalists who went to the village more recently reported that Mrs. Lanh now says she heard Rather than saw some of the killings. They also reported that another self-described eyewitness supports what Mrs. Lanh told us. We never told Gerhard Klann about Mrs. Lanh. But his recollection also matches hers, and contradicts Bob Kerrey, about what happened at the second set of hooches. Klann says the unit knew there were women and children before they opened fire.
Rather
As best as you can remember, describe that scene for me.
Klann
That's, I can see it. I relive it often enough but I can't describe it.. It was, it was carnage. It was, we just virtually slaughtered those people. I mean, there was blood flying up, bits and pieces of flesh hitting us.
Outside of family and friends, Gerhard Klann, like Bob Kerrey, did not talk about that night for more than 30 years. When we come back, you will hear for the first time his troubling story - a story which directly contradicts Bob Kerrey about what happened in Thanh Phong in 1969.
It is the story of a military operation in the Vietnam War under the command of Bob Kerrey, a former Senator, governor and Presidential candidate. It was a secret until Senator Kerrey agreed to talk to us and the New York Times Magazine about the 1969 operation, when his Navy SEAL unit killed more than 20 unarmed civilians - one old man, the rest women and children.
Since our story first aired, there have been calls for a war crimes investigation. And there was criticism we were smearing an American hero. Senator Kerrey, who was awarded the Medal of Honor after a later battle in Vietnam, originally told us it was all a horrible accident of war.
But a very experienced Navy SEAL who was at Kerrey's side that night, Gerhard Klann, a man who later helped save Kerrey's life, told us it was no accident - that in the chaos women and children were rounded up and shot at point-blank range for what was considered to be necessary reasons.
To this day, Gerhard Klann stands by his story. As for Senator Kerrey, in his recently published autobiography, he now avoids many of the questions about what happened that night. He does acknowledge that his own version has changed and may in fact no longer be accurate.
Two men with contradicting memories - both haunted by the events of a single night. We begin again with Bob Kerrey's memories.
Rather
You gave the order to fire?
Kerrey
Oh, absolutely.
Rather
You let 'em have it?
Kerrey
Well a bit more than let them have it, I mean we fired in lavs, we fired in M-79's, M-60's, we stood back and we just emptied everything we could into this place and we were taking fire. And we came into the village and it wasn't a big village, it was, you know, four or five hooches. There was a cluster of women and children, they were all dead. So that's the outcome.
Rather
Was this the worst thing that you ever did in your life?
Kerrey
Oh, nothing, there is no second place. Yes, yeah. I mean, this is where, I mean, I lost something more important than losing, if I'd lost both arms and both legs and my sight and my hearing it wouldn't have been as much as I lost that night.
Narration
It was early in 1969 when Lieutenant Kerrey arrived in Vietnam. The Communists were intensifying their attacks against U-S forces and their South Vietnamese allies. Thirty thousand Americans had already died in the war. Nearly ten thousand more would be killed by the end of the year . Kerrey was a highly skilled Navy SEAL leader, trained in demolition, infiltration and the arts of assassination and kidnapping behind enemy lines. Trained to go to places like the Mekong Delta, a place infested with the Viet Cong. Kerrey was eager to serve, as he put it, "with a knife in my teeth."
Kerrey
You're trained to kill somebody with a knife, you're trained to kill somebody with small arms, you're trained to kill somebody in tight.
Rather
You were team leader in Delta Platoon.
Kerrey
Mm-hm.
Rather
Fair or unfair to say they were young and green?
Kerrey
Fair to say that we are youg and green, right. Yeah.
Rather
Including yourself?
Kerrey
Oh, I would say most especially myself, yeah.
Narration
Kerrey's first big mission - on the night of February 25th, 1969 - just a few weeks after his green platoon arrived in Vietnam – was to kidnap a local political chief in his hooch, or thatch-roofed house, in a tiny Mekong Delta hamlet called Thanh Phong.
Rather
Take your time, take me to the start, tell me what happened.
Kerrey
We went in at night. And we found men in a hooch and the people who were running out in front of me said we've got people, we've found men and we're gonna take care of them. Which I understood and I would authorize without saying so meant they were going to kill them.
Narration
Kerrey says his squad used their knives to kill all five men.
Rather
Did you personally kill any of them?
Kerrey
No, I did not, but in my mind, I personally killed all of them, I take full responsibility for them, so, and then I'm in charge of this platoon, I'm in charge of the squad, actually.
Rather
Why not take them prisoner?
Kerrey
Because of where we're operating, our belief is that they could break free and we could be at risk.
Rather
They could compromise the mission?
Kerrey
Compromise the mission, we end up being dead.
Narration
Then, shortly after Kerrey says five men were killed, the mission spiraled out of control.
Kerrey
We moved out to the right and we started moving probably down, you know, criss-crossing a little bit along canals on the rice paddy on the dikes of these rice paddies. And we took fire and we returned the fire from an area that we were going.
Rather
Small arms fire?
Kerrey
Small arms fire. It was a fair distance away. I mean we just put down a field of fire and moved in on those hooches and stayed firing all the way through.
Narration
And when the firing stopped, Kerrey says he was stunned when he walked up to his victims.
Rather
How many were women and children?
Kerrey
All.
Rather
About how many were dead?
Kerrey
15, 12
Rather
At that moment, what did you think to yourself at that time?
Kerrey
I just killed my own family. I just did something really bad. I mean, I thought, this shouldn't have happened.
Narration
Kerrey says he and his men did not find any weapons. The unit was evacuated quickly by boat, and apparently the men did not talk much that night… or in the 30 years since… about what had happened. But one member of the unit did file a battle report the next morning – a report we managed to unearth - and we read it to Kerrey.
Rather
It says, "two hooches destroyed, 14 VC KIA." Translation: 14 Viet Cong killed in action. No mention of women and children.
Kerrey
No, we would not have sepaated out and mentioned them as women and children.
Rather
Why not?
Kerrey
It just didn't. We, sex, age, nothing would have been reported on in that fashion. We considered everybody in that area to be VC and that's how we would report it.
Rather
I think this is gonna surprise a lot of people. But that's the way it was.
Kerrey
That's the way it was.
Narration
For more than thirty years, Kerrey talked about Thanh Phong only with family members and his minister. He agreed to talk to us and the New York Times Magazine only after Gregory Vistica, an author and journalist, discovered previously classified military documents which suggested that women and children had been killed at Thanh Phong.
Kerrey
For a long time, I felt guilty. Guilty is to me a more trivial and also more destructive feeling. Remorse is what I feel today. And the difference is very, very important. I mean, let the other people judge whether or not what I did was militarily allowable or morally ethical or inside the rules of war. Let them figure that out. I mean, I can make a case that it was. But it's still a dead woman, it's still a dead child. It's still a dead man. It's still a dead person. It's still death.
Narration
After we interviewed Bob Kerrey, we wanted to find out more about what happened in Thanh Phong, so we sent a team to Vietnam. They drove six hours south of Saigon, now officially called Ho Chi Minh City… crossed the mighty Mekong River by ferry boat, and then took two more ferries to Than Phu province. Government officials told us this may be the poorest district in Vietnam, and Thanh Phong may be the poorest village,.lying at the end of a 15-kilometer-long dirt road. The villagers eke out a subsistence living, fishing, crabbing and growing water coconuts, and some say they have a lasting memory of the night in 1969 when the Americans attacked their hamlet. They remember it in horrifying detail. This man, the grandson of two of the people who died that night, showed us where the attack began.
(Vietnamese being spoken)
Rather Translation
Where the sugar cane is growing, he said. That's where they died.
Narration
We were told members of the American unit came down this river to get to the village, and are believed to have gone ashore here. There was more jungle back then, and the hooches they attacked have disappeared. But 62-year-old Pham Tri Lanh is still here. And she says she was watching as the Americans attacked the first hooch.
Mrs. Lanh
I was hiding behind the banana tree and I saw them cut the man's neck, first here and then there. His head was still just barely attacked at the back.
Narration
The Americans killed everyone in the first hooch, Mrs. Lanh said. And contrary to what Bob Kerrey told us, Mrs. Lanh says, the five victims were not all men.
Mrs. Lanh
No, that is not true. Ther was an old woman, an old man , two girls and a boy and they were all young. They were the grandchildren.
Narration
Anyone who says there were five men there is lying, Mrs. Lanh told 60 Minutes II producer Tom Anderson and a translator. More than 30 years later, Mrs. Lanh said she is certain of what she saw.
Mrs. Lanh
The three children were scared and they crawled into a ditch. The old man and the old woman were lying down inside a house like the houses here. There was a water pump. He was sleeping inside the house and they went in and grabbed him and dragged him out to the water pump and that is where they cut his throat. Then they stabbed the three children.
Q: Did you see the Americans kill the children?
A: (nods head yes) After they cut the throat of the old man, they went out and stabbed the three children.
Narration
Mrs. Lanh, the only person we found who claims to be an eyewitness to the attack, said the soldiers also stabbed the woman in the hooch to death. Nearby, villagers showed us the grave of the old man, named Bui Van Vat. Next to him is the grave of the woman -- his wife, Luu Thi Canh. Next to them are their three grandchildren, buried without headstones under mounds of cement -- a boy who was eight or nine, and two girls, one of them about ten, the other a year or two older. After killing the children and their grandparents, Mrs. Lanh told us, the Americans walked further into the hamlet and discovered several more hooches, and more villagers.
Mrs. Lanh
It was very crowded so it wasn't possible for them to cut everybody's throats one by one. (edit) Two women came out and kneeled down. (edit) They shot these two old women and they fell forward and they rolled over. And then they ordered everybody out from the bunker and they lined them up and they shot all of them from behind.
Q and A with Mrs. Lanh
Q: Were there any men in the second bunker?
A: Just three little boys
Q: How big were the boys?
A: Little, like that. They were about eight, nine, ten years old.
Narration
Mrs. Lanh says five or six girls were also gunned down, and five women, one of them pregnant. She says She managed to escape by hiding in an underground bunker. The story Mrs. Lanh lived to tell is very different from Bob Kerrey's. Keep in mind, however, that Mrs. Lanh was a Communist revolutionary during the war. But her story is remarkably similar to what another eyewitness later told us. His name is Gerhard Klann. He was also in Thanh Phong that night, as the most experienced member of Lieutenant Kerrey's unit. We asked Klann about the first hooch, the hooch Kerrey says was filled with men.
Rather
Do you remember how many there were?
Klann
Five or six that I recall. Five I think.
Rather
All males or a mixture of males and females?
Klann
No it was a mixture.
Rather
When you say a mixturewere there children?
Klann
Yeah, three.
Rather
Any of them small children?
Klann
I'd say I don't think any of them coulda been older than twelve years old.
Narration
That is precisely what Mrs. Lanh told us in Vietnam. Journalists who went to the village more recently reported that Mrs. Lanh now says she heard Rather than saw some of the killings. They also reported that another self-described eyewitness supports what Mrs. Lanh told us. We never told Gerhard Klann about Mrs. Lanh. But his recollection also matches hers, and contradicts Bob Kerrey, about what happened at the second set of hooches. Klann says the unit knew there were women and children before they opened fire.
Rather
As best as you can remember, describe that scene for me.
Klann
That's, I can see it. I relive it often enough but I can't describe it.. It was, it was carnage. It was, we just virtually slaughtered those people. I mean, there was blood flying up, bits and pieces of flesh hitting us.
Outside of family and friends, Gerhard Klann, like Bob Kerrey, did not talk about that night for more than 30 years. When we come back, you will hear for the first time his troubling story - a story which directly contradicts Bob Kerrey about what happened in Thanh Phong in 1969.
Memories Of A Massacre: Part II
Klann Tells His Version Of The Story
Bob Kerrey says the pressure was on in Vietnam from his superior
officers: destroy as many hooches and bunkers as possible, and keep the
body count up.
Don't come back from an operation, his commanding officer said, and tell me there were men there and you didn't capture or kill them.
And it was some times difficult, Senator Kerrey points out, to tell the difference between civilians and soldiers. Even so, Kerrey says, the killing of civilians in Thanh Phong was an accident, a mistake.
As we reported, however, the people who live in the hamlet sat they have different memories about what happened that night. And so does Gerhard Klann, who served in the SEALs for nearly 19 years, and was hand-picked for an elite counter-terrorism team, Seal Team Six, after the Vietnam War. Klann is currently a steel worker in Pennsylvania. In 1969, he was one of the seven SEALS in Lieutenant Kerrey's unit in Thanh Phong.
Klann
It was completely a free-fire zone. Total free fire zone.
Rather
Which means, anything moves, you can shoot it?
Klann
Anything. At our discretion. We had the right to choose to let them live or die. That was up to us.
Narration
The SEAL unit was working in the Thanh Phong area with a Vietnamese district chief, who's mentioned in a 1969 naval communiqué we managed to uncover. According to the document, "The District chief.. said that if people weren't GVN (meaning supporters of the American-backed South Vietnamese government) he didn't want them alive." Days before the main operation, Klann says the SEALs went into Thanh Phong and found only women and children in the hamlet. They let them go and returned to base. Klann says the district chief pressured them to return with these instructions.
Klann
No matter who you came across, bring back anybody if you think they're gonna be of any intelligence worth or eliminate them.
Rather
Was it or was it not also part of the mission to try to capture the Viet Cong chief of the district?
Klann
It was.
Narration
When the squad learned that the Viet Cong chief was expected back in Thanh Phong on February 25th, Gerhard Klann says the decision was made to return. That night, he says, he and the others approached the first hooch - the hooch Kerrey says was filled with men. Klann disagrees, and his story matches what we heard in the eyewitness account in Vietnam - that there was an old man, a woman, and three young children.
Klann
We were virtually standing inside the door before they even knew that we were there. And there was a few, a few of them were in a bunker.
Rather
And then what happened?
Klann
Well the decision was made and we dispatched of those people.
Rather
Three of whom were children?
Klann
Yes.
Rather
Who was in command?
Klann
Bob Kerrey
Rather
Did he give he order?
Klann
Yes.
Rather
And what was the order?
Klann
Kill them.
Rather
Because?
Klann
We were going to continue on with the op and head toward the main village.
Rather
And the concern was that they might sound an alarm?
Klann
Absolutely.
Narration
Klann says his job was to kill the old man.
Klann
He put up a fight and I called over one of the guys to hold him down there.
Rather
Do you remember who came over to help you?
Klann
Bob Kerrey. I think he kneeled on his chest and so I put his head back and cut this throat.
Rather
At the time, did you think it was the thing to do?
Klann
I did.
Rather
Because?
Klann
I didn't question it.
Rather
Didn't question it?
Klann
It was war, we were in a war zone. And that's not a time to question orders. We got a chain of command, he gave the order and we obeyed.
Rather
And what happened to the others in the hooch?
Klann
They all met a similar fate right about the same time.
Rather
And in much the same way?
Klann
Much the same.
Rather
So these people are now dead in the first hooch. Did you immediately move on toward what we call the main hamlet area?
Klann
Yes.
Rather
This is where you think the Viet Cong chief might be?
Klann
Yes.
Narration
This is also where Bob Kerrey says his unit came under attack.
Rather
Did you take fire coming in?
Klann
No.
Rather
Gunfire of any kind?
Klann
No.
Rather
Anything even remotely sounding like gunfire?
Klann
No, not that I can recall. No.
Rather
What'd you do this time?
Klann
We gathered everybody up, searched the place, searched everything.
Rather
What was the make-up of this group?
Klann
Probably a majority of em were kids. And women. And some younger women.
Rather
So you got all the people out of there.
Klann
We herded them together and in a group.
Rather
Were any of these people armed?
Klann
I don't believe so.
Rather
Fair to say you didn't see any weapons?
Klann
I didn't see any.
Rather
Did you decide pretty quickly or not that the target of your mission, the Viet Cong leader, was not among them?
Klann
Yeah, we got together and we were, hey the guy ain't here. Now we got these people, what do we do now?
Rather
What did you do then?
Klann
We killed them.
Rather
What do you mean, you killed em?
Klann
We shot them all.
Rather
Was an order given for that or was it more or less spontaneous?
Klann
I don't think we would have acted spontaneously on something like that. There was an order given.
Rather
What was the order?
Klann
To kill them.
Rather
Why?
Klann
Cause we'd already compromised ourselves by killing the other group.
Rather
Whose responsibility, whose obligation as it to say that?
Klann
The ultimate responsibility fell on Bob Kerrey.
Rather
Do you remember him saying that?
Klann
I don't remember his exact words, but he was the officer in charge. The call was his.
Rather
And then what happened?
Klann
We lined up, and we opened fire.
Rather
Individually or raked them with automatic weapons fire?
Klann
No. We, we just slaughtered them. It was automatic weapons fire. Rifle fire.
Rather
At roughly what range?
Klann
Six feet, ten feet, very close.
Rather
Then did the shooting stop?
Klann
Yeah, for a little bit.
Rather
Was it quiet?
Klann
It was dead quiet. It was dead quiet. Then you could just hear certain people, hear their moaning. So we would just fire into that area until it was silent there. And that was it. And, and until, we were sure that everybody was dead.
Rather
You said certain people were moaning or making noises. Were all those adults?
Klann
A few. I remember one baby still crying. That baby was probably the last one alive.
Rather
What happened to that baby?
Klann
Shot like the rest of em.
Narration
We told Bob Kerrey about Gerhard Klann's account of the events at Thanh Phong, and also revealed to him that much of Klann's story is supported by a woman who says she was an eyewitness in the village. Senator Kerrey seemed stunned, but then conceded that what happened at Thanh Phong may have been worse than he remembers. Gerhard Klann's story of a massacre there is so radically different from Kerrey's story that we asked Kerrey to do a second interview with us. He agreed and we started our second interview by asking him again about the very beginning of the operation.
Rather
There was a hut, a hooch and you said people were killed there. (Kerrey nods.) You said you thought it was, that they were all adults. Now Gerhard Klann says and a person who says that they were there at the time in Vietnam, they say that it was in fact an elderly man, an elderly woman and three children. Is that true?
Kerrey
That's not my memory of it.
Rather
We have a discrepancy. You've given us your memory and said, look, maybe my memory is faulty. But my memory is this way.
Kerrey
Gerhard I will not contradict. I will not contradict the memory of any of the six people that were on the operation that night. So if that's his view, I don't contradict it, it's not my memory of it. And as to the eyewitness is at the very least, sympathetic to the Viet Cong. At the absolute very least.
Rather
And at most might be what?
Kerrey
Might be Viet Cong themselves. Might have been an eyewitness, yes, but might have participated enough as to kill Americans who were operating in that area.
Narration
Kerrey's unit had been warned that a lot of the enemy in this guerrilla war ddn't wear uniforms and that other Americans had been attacked by women and, yes, children. Thanh Phong and the area around the hamlet were controlled by the Communists. But the eyewitness account we heard in Vietnam is supported to a remarkable degree by Gerhard Klann. And Klann says Lt. Kerrey helped him kill an old man at the first hooch.
Rather
Did you or did you not come over and help him kill this older man?
Kerrey
That is not my memory of it. But that's as far as I will go, Dan. I'm just, I'm not gonna get into a Gerhard for 30 years has been living with this memory as well. And so part of what we're gonna have to do is not just reconcile the memory. Reconciling the memory is just the smallest part of it. But reconciling the pain that is felt. Reconciling the guilt that is still there. The feeling that somehow we did something horrible and how do you go on living? What would we do now?
Rather
If in fact it did happen. If there was an old man, an old woman and three children being killed. Was it or was it not within the rules of engagement for you and your men as you understood it, if necessary, to kill those people?
Kerrey
Yes, Again, I don't know how you're gonna cut this tape, but I don't have any doubt that the people that we killed were at the very least sympathetic to the Viet Cong. And at the very most, were supporting their efforts to kill us.
Rather
Old men, women and children
Kerrey
Yes, I mean, the Viet Cong, in a guerrilla war, the people that get caught in the middle are the civilians. And the Viet Cong were a thousand per cent more ruthless than any standard operating procedure that any American GI or Navy SEAL had.
Rather
Let's move from the first hooch. The hut on what we'll call the outer edge of the main section.
Kerrey
Mmm-hmm.
Rather
You told me that you and your men shot from a distance that you estimated at maybe 100 yards. And you did not know until you stopped shooting that all of the people shotwere women and children.
Kerrey
That's correct, that is my memory.
Rather
Gerhard Klann told me that you and your men rounded them up and shot them at close range. His story is that you shot them at very close range. He estimated at five to ten feet.
Kerrey
I don't have any doubt about it, this part. We engaged from a distance. We fired light anti-tank weapons, into this area. We fired M79s into this area, we fired automatic weapons into this area, and we advanced on the area to finish the job.
Narration
The official battle report on Thanh Phong says Lieutenant Kerrey's unit came under attack and returned fire up to 12-hundred rounds and used some heavy weapons, including M-79's, grenades, and LAWs, or armor-piercing rockets.
Kerrey
Now it may be that there were people still alivas we came up close, but we didn't go into a village and round people up and shoot them in cold blood.
Rather
That is exactly Gerhard Klann's story.
Kerrey
That is not what happened that night. And I love Gerhard Klann dearly and I do not want anything in this story to hurt him, but that is not what happened that night.
Rather
No doubt about that.
Kerrey
No doubt about it. I mean it, it is certainly possible that some of Gerhard's memory, memory happened towards the end, I don't, I don't want to go down that road.
Rather
You have no memory of the inhabitants of the main part of the village being lined up.
Kerrey
No.
Rather
And being shot at point blank range.
Kerrey
No.
Rather
Repeatedly with automatic weapons?
Kerrey
No.
Rather
And forgive this reference, but it was literally blood and guts splattering all over everybody.
Kerrey
No
Rather
You have no memory of that?
Kerrey
I have seared into my memory the sight of the dead women and children as we came up upon them. That's what I have seared into my memory. And I to me it's as bad as if it had happened the way Gerhard, you see dramatic differences and I don't I mean and I just don't see dramatic differences. Because I feel no moral or military justifications for their deaths.
Rather
What do you think of Gerhard Klann?
Kerrey
Oh, I sought him out for the platoon. I was the administrative officer for the SEAL team and he had experience and I did not.
Rather
Was he a loyal, strong member of the team?
Kerrey
Yes.
Rather
Are you surprised by his story?
Kerrey
Yes, I am surprised by his story. But I'm not, I'm not angered by it.
Rather
Does he have a grudge against you as far as you know?
Kerrey
No.
Narration
And if Bob Kerrey is full of admiration for Gerhard Klann and his military experience… Klann also seems to have high regard for his former unit leader.
Rather
Do you like Bob Kerrey?
Klann
Yeah, absolutely, I've been good friends with him for ever since then.
Rather
My only point here, do you have any grudge against him?
Klann
No, none whatsoever.
Narration
There were five other SEALs with Bob Kerrey and Gerhard Klann that night in Thanh Phong. Four of them will not talk about the operation in any detail. The fifth man supports parts of both Kerrey and Klann's stories. Michael Ambrose agrees with Klann that Kerrey helped Klann kill the old man at the first hooch. But he emphatically disagrees with Klann that the other villagers were rounded up and shot. Ambrose does say, however, that they were shot at close range - 20 to 50 feet, he says - much closer than Kerrey contends.
Last year, Senator Kerrey and those five other SEALs got together to talk about Thanh Phong, apparently for the first time in 32 years. They released a statement saying "We received fire and we returned fire." The memory "that we rounded up women and children and shot them at point blank range, is simply not true."
Rather
Is it possible that Gerhard Klann's version of what happened is correct and that it was so horrible that in the nightmare of memories that you have, that you've sealed it off. Is that possible?
Kerrey
No.
Rather
Is it probable?
Kerrey
It is neither possible nor probable. It's not impossible that some version of what Gerhard is talking about happened. But it's not my memory.
Narration
But a military cable we uncovered supports a crucial part of Gerhard Klann's story - that Lieutenant Kerry's unit visited Thanh Phong two weeks before the attack, and found only women and children there.
Rather
Did you make such a visit? Do you remember that visit?
Kerrey
None of us remembers that. It would have been a violation of SEAL team procedures to go back in. It would put us at considerable risk to go back, right to the same spot.
Rather
Then how do you explain the cable?
Kerrey
I do, I cannot explain the cable. I cannot explain the cable. I mean, I don't know, you've got a cable, I don't know.
Rather
I've been told that your orders, as a SEAL, and as a SEAL unit leader, was to get the job done. Forget about taking prisoners. Is that true?
Kerrey
That's true.
Rather
Those were your orders.
Kerrey
Those were orders.
Rather
Get it done.
Kerrey
Yeah, get it done.
Rather
Don't worry about taking prisoners or don't take any prisoners.
Kerrey
Don't take prisoners.
Rather
If and let me italicize that word, if the operation in Thanh Phong happened the way Gerhard Klann remembers it, if it happened that way, would that have been permissible under the rules of engagement, which you operate?
Kerrey
I can't go that far. No. I think it would not have been permissible. But it's, it's you know and the problem is, the truth of the matter is, it felt like it was permissible.
Rather
Within the rules of war as you understood them?
Kerrey
I would say yes, within the rules as I understood them.
Narration
Military and civilian lawyers who are war crimes specialists have told us they disagree with that interpretation. They say that any order to kill civilians or unarmed prisoners is illegal. But Lt. Kerrey's actions apparently were not challenged in 1969, even though according to an army radio log we found, a resident of Thanh Phong did make a formal complaint about atrocities committed the night of Kerrey's operation.
Rather
To your knowledge, has this operation in Thanh Phong ever been investigated.
Kerrey
No.
Rather
As a war crime.
Kerry
No.
Rather
Or atrocity case?
Kerrey
No.
Rather
Should it have been?
Kerrey
I would say no, under the circumstances of what we were doing, I would say no. I mean I certainly wouldn't have been afraid of an investigation at that time.
Rather
All but one of the victims were women and children. There was one man described as an older man. That being the case, why shouldn't it be considered a war crime? Or an atrocity? Or be an investigation?
Kerrey
I would not call it a war, but the people who were responsible for us at that time, if they wanted to do an investigation, they should have done an investigation. To describe it as a war crime, I think is wrong. Or to describe it as an atrocity, I would say, is pretty close to being right. Because that's how it felt and that's why I feel guilt and shame for it.
Rather
Are you concerned at all about the consequences of this becoming public?
Kerrey
Well am I, certainly, I'm that's a possibility. I've got to be prepared to tolerate any consequences of this. I understand that that are all kinds of potential consequences, up to and including somebody saying, this is a war crime. And let's investigate and charge him and put him in prison.
Rather
Are you sorry now that you agreed to talk about it?
Kerrey
No, not at all sorry.
Kerrey says he's lived with the shame and guilt of Thanh Phong since it happened. But military leaders decided to give Kerrey an award for the operation that night. Hear what Kerrey says about that when in Part III.
Don't come back from an operation, his commanding officer said, and tell me there were men there and you didn't capture or kill them.
And it was some times difficult, Senator Kerrey points out, to tell the difference between civilians and soldiers. Even so, Kerrey says, the killing of civilians in Thanh Phong was an accident, a mistake.
As we reported, however, the people who live in the hamlet sat they have different memories about what happened that night. And so does Gerhard Klann, who served in the SEALs for nearly 19 years, and was hand-picked for an elite counter-terrorism team, Seal Team Six, after the Vietnam War. Klann is currently a steel worker in Pennsylvania. In 1969, he was one of the seven SEALS in Lieutenant Kerrey's unit in Thanh Phong.
Klann
It was completely a free-fire zone. Total free fire zone.
Rather
Which means, anything moves, you can shoot it?
Klann
Anything. At our discretion. We had the right to choose to let them live or die. That was up to us.
Narration
The SEAL unit was working in the Thanh Phong area with a Vietnamese district chief, who's mentioned in a 1969 naval communiqué we managed to uncover. According to the document, "The District chief.. said that if people weren't GVN (meaning supporters of the American-backed South Vietnamese government) he didn't want them alive." Days before the main operation, Klann says the SEALs went into Thanh Phong and found only women and children in the hamlet. They let them go and returned to base. Klann says the district chief pressured them to return with these instructions.
Klann
No matter who you came across, bring back anybody if you think they're gonna be of any intelligence worth or eliminate them.
Rather
Was it or was it not also part of the mission to try to capture the Viet Cong chief of the district?
Klann
It was.
Narration
When the squad learned that the Viet Cong chief was expected back in Thanh Phong on February 25th, Gerhard Klann says the decision was made to return. That night, he says, he and the others approached the first hooch - the hooch Kerrey says was filled with men. Klann disagrees, and his story matches what we heard in the eyewitness account in Vietnam - that there was an old man, a woman, and three young children.
Klann
We were virtually standing inside the door before they even knew that we were there. And there was a few, a few of them were in a bunker.
Rather
And then what happened?
Klann
Well the decision was made and we dispatched of those people.
Rather
Three of whom were children?
Klann
Yes.
Rather
Who was in command?
Klann
Bob Kerrey
Rather
Did he give he order?
Klann
Yes.
Rather
And what was the order?
Klann
Kill them.
Rather
Because?
Klann
We were going to continue on with the op and head toward the main village.
Rather
And the concern was that they might sound an alarm?
Klann
Absolutely.
Narration
Klann says his job was to kill the old man.
Klann
He put up a fight and I called over one of the guys to hold him down there.
Rather
Do you remember who came over to help you?
Klann
Bob Kerrey. I think he kneeled on his chest and so I put his head back and cut this throat.
Rather
At the time, did you think it was the thing to do?
Klann
I did.
Rather
Because?
Klann
I didn't question it.
Rather
Didn't question it?
Klann
It was war, we were in a war zone. And that's not a time to question orders. We got a chain of command, he gave the order and we obeyed.
Rather
And what happened to the others in the hooch?
Klann
They all met a similar fate right about the same time.
Rather
And in much the same way?
Klann
Much the same.
Rather
So these people are now dead in the first hooch. Did you immediately move on toward what we call the main hamlet area?
Klann
Yes.
Rather
This is where you think the Viet Cong chief might be?
Klann
Yes.
Narration
This is also where Bob Kerrey says his unit came under attack.
Rather
Did you take fire coming in?
Klann
No.
Rather
Gunfire of any kind?
Klann
No.
Rather
Anything even remotely sounding like gunfire?
Klann
No, not that I can recall. No.
Rather
What'd you do this time?
Klann
We gathered everybody up, searched the place, searched everything.
Rather
What was the make-up of this group?
Klann
Probably a majority of em were kids. And women. And some younger women.
Rather
So you got all the people out of there.
Klann
We herded them together and in a group.
Rather
Were any of these people armed?
Klann
I don't believe so.
Rather
Fair to say you didn't see any weapons?
Klann
I didn't see any.
Rather
Did you decide pretty quickly or not that the target of your mission, the Viet Cong leader, was not among them?
Klann
Yeah, we got together and we were, hey the guy ain't here. Now we got these people, what do we do now?
Rather
What did you do then?
Klann
We killed them.
Rather
What do you mean, you killed em?
Klann
We shot them all.
Rather
Was an order given for that or was it more or less spontaneous?
Klann
I don't think we would have acted spontaneously on something like that. There was an order given.
Rather
What was the order?
Klann
To kill them.
Rather
Why?
Klann
Cause we'd already compromised ourselves by killing the other group.
Rather
Whose responsibility, whose obligation as it to say that?
Klann
The ultimate responsibility fell on Bob Kerrey.
Rather
Do you remember him saying that?
Klann
I don't remember his exact words, but he was the officer in charge. The call was his.
Rather
And then what happened?
Klann
We lined up, and we opened fire.
Rather
Individually or raked them with automatic weapons fire?
Klann
No. We, we just slaughtered them. It was automatic weapons fire. Rifle fire.
Rather
At roughly what range?
Klann
Six feet, ten feet, very close.
Rather
Then did the shooting stop?
Klann
Yeah, for a little bit.
Rather
Was it quiet?
Klann
It was dead quiet. It was dead quiet. Then you could just hear certain people, hear their moaning. So we would just fire into that area until it was silent there. And that was it. And, and until, we were sure that everybody was dead.
Rather
You said certain people were moaning or making noises. Were all those adults?
Klann
A few. I remember one baby still crying. That baby was probably the last one alive.
Rather
What happened to that baby?
Klann
Shot like the rest of em.
Narration
We told Bob Kerrey about Gerhard Klann's account of the events at Thanh Phong, and also revealed to him that much of Klann's story is supported by a woman who says she was an eyewitness in the village. Senator Kerrey seemed stunned, but then conceded that what happened at Thanh Phong may have been worse than he remembers. Gerhard Klann's story of a massacre there is so radically different from Kerrey's story that we asked Kerrey to do a second interview with us. He agreed and we started our second interview by asking him again about the very beginning of the operation.
Rather
There was a hut, a hooch and you said people were killed there. (Kerrey nods.) You said you thought it was, that they were all adults. Now Gerhard Klann says and a person who says that they were there at the time in Vietnam, they say that it was in fact an elderly man, an elderly woman and three children. Is that true?
Kerrey
That's not my memory of it.
Rather
We have a discrepancy. You've given us your memory and said, look, maybe my memory is faulty. But my memory is this way.
Kerrey
Gerhard I will not contradict. I will not contradict the memory of any of the six people that were on the operation that night. So if that's his view, I don't contradict it, it's not my memory of it. And as to the eyewitness is at the very least, sympathetic to the Viet Cong. At the absolute very least.
Rather
And at most might be what?
Kerrey
Might be Viet Cong themselves. Might have been an eyewitness, yes, but might have participated enough as to kill Americans who were operating in that area.
Narration
Kerrey's unit had been warned that a lot of the enemy in this guerrilla war ddn't wear uniforms and that other Americans had been attacked by women and, yes, children. Thanh Phong and the area around the hamlet were controlled by the Communists. But the eyewitness account we heard in Vietnam is supported to a remarkable degree by Gerhard Klann. And Klann says Lt. Kerrey helped him kill an old man at the first hooch.
Rather
Did you or did you not come over and help him kill this older man?
Kerrey
That is not my memory of it. But that's as far as I will go, Dan. I'm just, I'm not gonna get into a Gerhard for 30 years has been living with this memory as well. And so part of what we're gonna have to do is not just reconcile the memory. Reconciling the memory is just the smallest part of it. But reconciling the pain that is felt. Reconciling the guilt that is still there. The feeling that somehow we did something horrible and how do you go on living? What would we do now?
Rather
If in fact it did happen. If there was an old man, an old woman and three children being killed. Was it or was it not within the rules of engagement for you and your men as you understood it, if necessary, to kill those people?
Kerrey
Yes, Again, I don't know how you're gonna cut this tape, but I don't have any doubt that the people that we killed were at the very least sympathetic to the Viet Cong. And at the very most, were supporting their efforts to kill us.
Rather
Old men, women and children
Kerrey
Yes, I mean, the Viet Cong, in a guerrilla war, the people that get caught in the middle are the civilians. And the Viet Cong were a thousand per cent more ruthless than any standard operating procedure that any American GI or Navy SEAL had.
Rather
Let's move from the first hooch. The hut on what we'll call the outer edge of the main section.
Kerrey
Mmm-hmm.
Rather
You told me that you and your men shot from a distance that you estimated at maybe 100 yards. And you did not know until you stopped shooting that all of the people shotwere women and children.
Kerrey
That's correct, that is my memory.
Rather
Gerhard Klann told me that you and your men rounded them up and shot them at close range. His story is that you shot them at very close range. He estimated at five to ten feet.
Kerrey
I don't have any doubt about it, this part. We engaged from a distance. We fired light anti-tank weapons, into this area. We fired M79s into this area, we fired automatic weapons into this area, and we advanced on the area to finish the job.
Narration
The official battle report on Thanh Phong says Lieutenant Kerrey's unit came under attack and returned fire up to 12-hundred rounds and used some heavy weapons, including M-79's, grenades, and LAWs, or armor-piercing rockets.
Kerrey
Now it may be that there were people still alivas we came up close, but we didn't go into a village and round people up and shoot them in cold blood.
Rather
That is exactly Gerhard Klann's story.
Kerrey
That is not what happened that night. And I love Gerhard Klann dearly and I do not want anything in this story to hurt him, but that is not what happened that night.
Rather
No doubt about that.
Kerrey
No doubt about it. I mean it, it is certainly possible that some of Gerhard's memory, memory happened towards the end, I don't, I don't want to go down that road.
Rather
You have no memory of the inhabitants of the main part of the village being lined up.
Kerrey
No.
Rather
And being shot at point blank range.
Kerrey
No.
Rather
Repeatedly with automatic weapons?
Kerrey
No.
Rather
And forgive this reference, but it was literally blood and guts splattering all over everybody.
Kerrey
No
Rather
You have no memory of that?
Kerrey
I have seared into my memory the sight of the dead women and children as we came up upon them. That's what I have seared into my memory. And I to me it's as bad as if it had happened the way Gerhard, you see dramatic differences and I don't I mean and I just don't see dramatic differences. Because I feel no moral or military justifications for their deaths.
Rather
What do you think of Gerhard Klann?
Kerrey
Oh, I sought him out for the platoon. I was the administrative officer for the SEAL team and he had experience and I did not.
Rather
Was he a loyal, strong member of the team?
Kerrey
Yes.
Rather
Are you surprised by his story?
Kerrey
Yes, I am surprised by his story. But I'm not, I'm not angered by it.
Rather
Does he have a grudge against you as far as you know?
Kerrey
No.
Narration
And if Bob Kerrey is full of admiration for Gerhard Klann and his military experience… Klann also seems to have high regard for his former unit leader.
Rather
Do you like Bob Kerrey?
Klann
Yeah, absolutely, I've been good friends with him for ever since then.
Rather
My only point here, do you have any grudge against him?
Klann
No, none whatsoever.
Narration
There were five other SEALs with Bob Kerrey and Gerhard Klann that night in Thanh Phong. Four of them will not talk about the operation in any detail. The fifth man supports parts of both Kerrey and Klann's stories. Michael Ambrose agrees with Klann that Kerrey helped Klann kill the old man at the first hooch. But he emphatically disagrees with Klann that the other villagers were rounded up and shot. Ambrose does say, however, that they were shot at close range - 20 to 50 feet, he says - much closer than Kerrey contends.
Last year, Senator Kerrey and those five other SEALs got together to talk about Thanh Phong, apparently for the first time in 32 years. They released a statement saying "We received fire and we returned fire." The memory "that we rounded up women and children and shot them at point blank range, is simply not true."
Rather
Is it possible that Gerhard Klann's version of what happened is correct and that it was so horrible that in the nightmare of memories that you have, that you've sealed it off. Is that possible?
Kerrey
No.
Rather
Is it probable?
Kerrey
It is neither possible nor probable. It's not impossible that some version of what Gerhard is talking about happened. But it's not my memory.
Narration
But a military cable we uncovered supports a crucial part of Gerhard Klann's story - that Lieutenant Kerry's unit visited Thanh Phong two weeks before the attack, and found only women and children there.
Rather
Did you make such a visit? Do you remember that visit?
Kerrey
None of us remembers that. It would have been a violation of SEAL team procedures to go back in. It would put us at considerable risk to go back, right to the same spot.
Rather
Then how do you explain the cable?
Kerrey
I do, I cannot explain the cable. I cannot explain the cable. I mean, I don't know, you've got a cable, I don't know.
Rather
I've been told that your orders, as a SEAL, and as a SEAL unit leader, was to get the job done. Forget about taking prisoners. Is that true?
Kerrey
That's true.
Rather
Those were your orders.
Kerrey
Those were orders.
Rather
Get it done.
Kerrey
Yeah, get it done.
Rather
Don't worry about taking prisoners or don't take any prisoners.
Kerrey
Don't take prisoners.
Rather
If and let me italicize that word, if the operation in Thanh Phong happened the way Gerhard Klann remembers it, if it happened that way, would that have been permissible under the rules of engagement, which you operate?
Kerrey
I can't go that far. No. I think it would not have been permissible. But it's, it's you know and the problem is, the truth of the matter is, it felt like it was permissible.
Rather
Within the rules of war as you understood them?
Kerrey
I would say yes, within the rules as I understood them.
Narration
Military and civilian lawyers who are war crimes specialists have told us they disagree with that interpretation. They say that any order to kill civilians or unarmed prisoners is illegal. But Lt. Kerrey's actions apparently were not challenged in 1969, even though according to an army radio log we found, a resident of Thanh Phong did make a formal complaint about atrocities committed the night of Kerrey's operation.
Rather
To your knowledge, has this operation in Thanh Phong ever been investigated.
Kerrey
No.
Rather
As a war crime.
Kerry
No.
Rather
Or atrocity case?
Kerrey
No.
Rather
Should it have been?
Kerrey
I would say no, under the circumstances of what we were doing, I would say no. I mean I certainly wouldn't have been afraid of an investigation at that time.
Rather
All but one of the victims were women and children. There was one man described as an older man. That being the case, why shouldn't it be considered a war crime? Or an atrocity? Or be an investigation?
Kerrey
I would not call it a war, but the people who were responsible for us at that time, if they wanted to do an investigation, they should have done an investigation. To describe it as a war crime, I think is wrong. Or to describe it as an atrocity, I would say, is pretty close to being right. Because that's how it felt and that's why I feel guilt and shame for it.
Rather
Are you concerned at all about the consequences of this becoming public?
Kerrey
Well am I, certainly, I'm that's a possibility. I've got to be prepared to tolerate any consequences of this. I understand that that are all kinds of potential consequences, up to and including somebody saying, this is a war crime. And let's investigate and charge him and put him in prison.
Rather
Are you sorry now that you agreed to talk about it?
Kerrey
No, not at all sorry.
Kerrey says he's lived with the shame and guilt of Thanh Phong since it happened. But military leaders decided to give Kerrey an award for the operation that night. Hear what Kerrey says about that when in Part III.
Memories Of A Massacre: Part III
What Happened In Thanh Phong?
For more than 30 years, Bob Kerrey says he has been tormented by what happened at Thanh Phong.
Though he insists that what he and his men did was permissible under the rules of engagement. But back in 1969, the mission was gnawing away at him, so much so that he says he changed the way his men operated in their next mission.
Two weeks after Thanh Phong, Bob Kerrey had another mission, on an island off the coast of Nha Trang. The target: a group of hard-core Viet Cong soldiers. Lieutenant Kerrey's unit scaled these 300-foot cliffs at night. And after what happened at Thanh Phong, Kerrey says he wanted to take the enemy soldiers prisoner. This time, he split up his unit, there was crossfire, Kerrey was wounded, and he lost his leg. After he got out of the hospital, he was awarded the Medal of Honor by President Nixon. Kerrey's men got together in Washington on the 30th anniversary of his receiving that Medal. They didn't talk much, if at all, about Thanh Phong, and from what we've been told, Kerrey never told them he had received a separate award - a Bronze Star - for the operation in Thanh Phong, the operation he now calls an atrocity.
Rather
Bob Kerrey later received a Congressional Medal of Honor. But for this operation, he received a Bronze Star.
Klann
I wasn't aware of that.
Rather
You didn't know that?
Klann
No.
Rather
Well, it's been a long time ago. But what do you think of that?
Klann
No, there was nothing warranted on that whole night that anybody should have received a decoration, let alone accepted it.
Rather
You said you feel shame and guilt. Did you feel it at the time? And if so, why accept the Bronze Star for this operation? Something completely different from the Congressional.
Kerrey
I didn't, I mean, I didn't send it back. But I've never worn it. I've no idea where it is. Send me a bronze, I didn't wear a Congressional medal of honor, for almost 20 years afterward. Don't presume that because I'm wearing a medal, that I'm a perfect hero. Introduce me as a hero if you want to, but understand not only am I a hero one night and a coward the next, but we're trained to do horrible things.
Narration
The Bronze Star citation credits Kerrey and his men with killing 21 Viet Cong.
Rather
Did you think then, do you think now, if you give it back, the Bronze Star.
Kerrey
I don't, I didn't think nor do I think now that I had to give it back, to feel like it was inappropriately awarded.
Rather
Do you think it was inappropriately awarded?
Kerrey
I think it's inappropriately awarded, yeah.
Narration
Bob Kerrey was obviously uncomfortable with this line of questioning and off camera he told us he thought we were cross-examining him. But we did think it was necessary to ask him once again about Gerhard Klann.
Rather
We've been in touch with Gerhard Klann recently and he says you were trying to convince him to change his story. Is that true?
Kerrey
That is not true. God bless Gerhard, that is not, if I was gonna change Gerhard's story, I would have contacted him three years ago.
Rather
Did he tell you that he thought you were trying to get him to change his story?
Kerrey
I don't think so. He may have.
Narration
But Kerrey says he wants to get together with Klann so they can reconcile their stories. They owe it to each other, he thinks.
Kerrey
We haven't been intimate for 31 years, but I mean on the night I was injured on the little island off Nha Trang and Gerhard Klann put the morphine in my thigh. Gerhard Klann held me in his arms like a baby. While I smoked a cigarette and waited for the Medivac helicopter to come and pick me up I can't presume anything bad about him. I can't anything but to do little, big, small, whatever to try to help him do what I've been trying to do, which is to live with this horror.
Narration
Living with that horror, Kerrey firmly believes, has been so difficult because Vietnam veterans have been treated differently from vets of other wars, wars that weren't questioned, wars the United States didn't lose.
Rather
Senator, if this had happened in World War Two, would we be talking about it? Would anybody be writing about it?
Kerrey
Curtis Lemay said in his memoirs that if after having designed a firebombing campaign in Japan that killed 100,000 civilians in Tokyo, in a single night, he said, If we lost the war, that he would have been tried and executed as a war criminal. And that may be true. No, we would not be talking about it in the same way, had this been in World War Two.
Narration
For three decades now, their Vietnam experience has haunted Bob Kerrey and his men. Kerrey says he has lived and re-lived what happened on that night in February in 1969.
Rather
Did you have nightmares?
Kerrey
Oh, yeah. I mean, I couldn't shut my eyes without seeing red for quite a while after I got him. So yeah, I was afraid to go to sleep. It was just violent horrible things happening to me and to others I mean that's what hell is. You know, when, when you think about hell and you imagine what hell is, you imagine horrible things happening. Well, hell's not an imaginary thing. It's a, it's a real place and you can experience it on earth and I experienced it on that night.
Rather
You've been there?
Kerrey
I have been there.
Rather
What you have seen and heard tonight is some of what the Vietnam War was like, what it was really like. Some of the war, but not all. Most Americans who served in Vietnam never did or saw anything remotely ressembling what Bob Kerrey and Gerard Klann went through.
Kerrey and Klann were young commandos, trained to do what the enemy had been doing for years: terrorize key people, kill them if necessary, in hopes of winning the war. They went into Thanh Phong that night in 1969 to do what they were ordered to do. Whatever the precise details - which we may never know for certain - it turned into a nightmare. Think of it what you will, but know this: it is what some of war is like, what it's really like a nightmare of unimaginable horror and savagery, the full depths of which only those who live through it can know.
Though he insists that what he and his men did was permissible under the rules of engagement. But back in 1969, the mission was gnawing away at him, so much so that he says he changed the way his men operated in their next mission.
Two weeks after Thanh Phong, Bob Kerrey had another mission, on an island off the coast of Nha Trang. The target: a group of hard-core Viet Cong soldiers. Lieutenant Kerrey's unit scaled these 300-foot cliffs at night. And after what happened at Thanh Phong, Kerrey says he wanted to take the enemy soldiers prisoner. This time, he split up his unit, there was crossfire, Kerrey was wounded, and he lost his leg. After he got out of the hospital, he was awarded the Medal of Honor by President Nixon. Kerrey's men got together in Washington on the 30th anniversary of his receiving that Medal. They didn't talk much, if at all, about Thanh Phong, and from what we've been told, Kerrey never told them he had received a separate award - a Bronze Star - for the operation in Thanh Phong, the operation he now calls an atrocity.
Rather
Bob Kerrey later received a Congressional Medal of Honor. But for this operation, he received a Bronze Star.
Klann
I wasn't aware of that.
Rather
You didn't know that?
Klann
No.
Rather
Well, it's been a long time ago. But what do you think of that?
Klann
No, there was nothing warranted on that whole night that anybody should have received a decoration, let alone accepted it.
Rather
You said you feel shame and guilt. Did you feel it at the time? And if so, why accept the Bronze Star for this operation? Something completely different from the Congressional.
Kerrey
I didn't, I mean, I didn't send it back. But I've never worn it. I've no idea where it is. Send me a bronze, I didn't wear a Congressional medal of honor, for almost 20 years afterward. Don't presume that because I'm wearing a medal, that I'm a perfect hero. Introduce me as a hero if you want to, but understand not only am I a hero one night and a coward the next, but we're trained to do horrible things.
Narration
The Bronze Star citation credits Kerrey and his men with killing 21 Viet Cong.
Rather
Did you think then, do you think now, if you give it back, the Bronze Star.
Kerrey
I don't, I didn't think nor do I think now that I had to give it back, to feel like it was inappropriately awarded.
Rather
Do you think it was inappropriately awarded?
Kerrey
I think it's inappropriately awarded, yeah.
Narration
Bob Kerrey was obviously uncomfortable with this line of questioning and off camera he told us he thought we were cross-examining him. But we did think it was necessary to ask him once again about Gerhard Klann.
Rather
We've been in touch with Gerhard Klann recently and he says you were trying to convince him to change his story. Is that true?
Kerrey
That is not true. God bless Gerhard, that is not, if I was gonna change Gerhard's story, I would have contacted him three years ago.
Rather
Did he tell you that he thought you were trying to get him to change his story?
Kerrey
I don't think so. He may have.
Narration
But Kerrey says he wants to get together with Klann so they can reconcile their stories. They owe it to each other, he thinks.
Kerrey
We haven't been intimate for 31 years, but I mean on the night I was injured on the little island off Nha Trang and Gerhard Klann put the morphine in my thigh. Gerhard Klann held me in his arms like a baby. While I smoked a cigarette and waited for the Medivac helicopter to come and pick me up I can't presume anything bad about him. I can't anything but to do little, big, small, whatever to try to help him do what I've been trying to do, which is to live with this horror.
Narration
Living with that horror, Kerrey firmly believes, has been so difficult because Vietnam veterans have been treated differently from vets of other wars, wars that weren't questioned, wars the United States didn't lose.
Rather
Senator, if this had happened in World War Two, would we be talking about it? Would anybody be writing about it?
Kerrey
Curtis Lemay said in his memoirs that if after having designed a firebombing campaign in Japan that killed 100,000 civilians in Tokyo, in a single night, he said, If we lost the war, that he would have been tried and executed as a war criminal. And that may be true. No, we would not be talking about it in the same way, had this been in World War Two.
Narration
For three decades now, their Vietnam experience has haunted Bob Kerrey and his men. Kerrey says he has lived and re-lived what happened on that night in February in 1969.
Rather
Did you have nightmares?
Kerrey
Oh, yeah. I mean, I couldn't shut my eyes without seeing red for quite a while after I got him. So yeah, I was afraid to go to sleep. It was just violent horrible things happening to me and to others I mean that's what hell is. You know, when, when you think about hell and you imagine what hell is, you imagine horrible things happening. Well, hell's not an imaginary thing. It's a, it's a real place and you can experience it on earth and I experienced it on that night.
Rather
You've been there?
Kerrey
I have been there.
Rather
What you have seen and heard tonight is some of what the Vietnam War was like, what it was really like. Some of the war, but not all. Most Americans who served in Vietnam never did or saw anything remotely ressembling what Bob Kerrey and Gerard Klann went through.
Kerrey and Klann were young commandos, trained to do what the enemy had been doing for years: terrorize key people, kill them if necessary, in hopes of winning the war. They went into Thanh Phong that night in 1969 to do what they were ordered to do. Whatever the precise details - which we may never know for certain - it turned into a nightmare. Think of it what you will, but know this: it is what some of war is like, what it's really like a nightmare of unimaginable horror and savagery, the full depths of which only those who live through it can know.
No comments:
Post a Comment